Posts by jonathan dough

Furthermore, Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.

15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).

The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.

“Jehovah is in his temple,
Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.”

2) The earth shall be destroyed, to be reinhabited at a later date, just like Peter said:

Because the earth shall be destroyed, the resurrected, and the Great Crowd, cannot be ruled over by the 144,000 from heaven[Home]

The Greek word basileuo “to reign,” does not only mean to “rule over a people.” It is often used as metaphor, such as to “reign in life” (Rom. 5:17) where ‘shall reign in life’ indicates the activity of life in fellowship with Christ in His sovereign power, reaching its fullness hereafter; 1 Cor. 4:8…” (Vine’s, 52). One can also reign over sin (Rom. 6:12). Grace can also reign (Rom. 5:21). With this in mind it does not automatically or logically follow that there must be someone over whom the 144,000 reign on earth in the same way that contemporary governments rule over a people in today’s world.

As a matter of fact, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible does not tell us what the 144,000 will do after the thousand year reign is over, Revelation 22:3,4 informs us that God's servants will worship him and "shall reign forever and ever." But reign over who? They claim that at that time no one will stand between God and man, most certainly not Jesus (Insight, 170); the kingdom will have been handed over, death will be no more and man will be forever perfect. But if that is true the word "reign" cannot mean to rule over humans on earth, especially on an earth destined for fire which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10).

Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.

More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).

To "reign," then, must mean to reign in life or over sin, and old-world government models such as king David's rule over God's people do not necessarily apply to a new world, a new earth and a new creation. As a point of interest, this is the meaning ascribed to the concept of "reign" by the Catholic church.

Like other numerical values in this book, the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ's resurrection victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God's people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin; cf Rom 6, 1-8; Jn 5, 24-25; 16, 33; 1 Jn 3,14; Eph 2,1. (NAB, note Rev. 20:1-6)

Finally, if the Great Crowd is in heaven and not on earth as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, the 144,000 cannot rule over them as earthly subjects.

More info here: http://144000.110mb.com/index.html

4

The great crowd! Gathered from where? By Whom?

by wannabe in

at last count, there are some eight billion people living on our earth at this present moment in time.

which brings me to the point i. wish to make about a great unnumbered crowd surviving the great tribulation, after armageddon is fought.. .

but it would take another 4000 years to do that.

jonathan dough

You are wrong for two main reasons.

1) The Great Crowd is in heaven, not on earth. Several explanations are found here:

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html#III

Furthermore, Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.

15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).

The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.

“Jehovah is in his temple,
Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.”

2) The earth shall be destroyed, to be reinhabited at a later date, just like Peter said:

Because the earth shall be destroyed, the resurrected, and the Great Crowd, cannot be ruled over by the 144,000 from heaven[Home]

The Greek word basileuo “to reign,” does not only mean to “rule over a people.” It is often used as metaphor, such as to “reign in life” (Rom. 5:17) where ‘shall reign in life’ indicates the activity of life in fellowship with Christ in His sovereign power, reaching its fullness hereafter; 1 Cor. 4:8…” (Vine’s, 52). One can also reign over sin (Rom. 6:12). Grace can also reign (Rom. 5:21). With this in mind it does not automatically or logically follow that there must be someone over whom the 144,000 reign on earth in the same way that contemporary governments rule over a people in today’s world.

As a matter of fact, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible does not tell us what the 144,000 will do after the thousand year reign is over, Revelation 22:3,4 informs us that God's servants will worship him and "shall reign forever and ever." But reign over who? They claim that at that time no one will stand between God and man, most certainly not Jesus (Insight, 170); the kingdom will have been handed over, death will be no more and man will be forever perfect. But if that is true the word "reign" cannot mean to rule over humans on earth, especially on an earth destined for fire which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10).

Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.

More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).

To "reign," then, must mean to reign in life or over sin, and old-world government models such as king David's rule over God's people do not necessarily apply to a new world, a new earth and a new creation. As a point of interest, this is the meaning ascribed to the concept of "reign" by the Catholic church.

Like other numerical values in this book, the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ's resurrection victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God's people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin; cf Rom 6, 1-8; Jn 5, 24-25; 16, 33; 1 Jn 3,14; Eph 2,1. (NAB, note Rev. 20:1-6)

Finally, if the Great Crowd is in heaven and not on earth as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, the 144,000 cannot rule over them as earthly subjects.

More info here: http://144000.110mb.com/index.html

27

JW's a RELIGION based on PERFORMANCE! How dangerous is that???

by freewilly01 in

jw
friends

i have come to realize that this religion is based almost solely on performance and that is the most dangerous.. i always felt that as a person or jw (while an active witness)that i was always just as good as my last assignment, comment at the watchtower meeting, feild service report.. this left me with a huge identity crisis in the borgorg......... i really didn't know who the hell i was?.

did any of you feel similair?

.

jonathan dough

onathan Jonathan Jonathan still calling the kettle black.

Jws are ametures in the goof ball idea market compared to your religious ilk. You lovely 'Born again Trinitarians' butchered indigenous peoples by the millions.............hell you didn't even spare each other.

What a farse your brand of christianity is.

'Do a little good each day'

http://144000.110mb.com/index.html

I take back the good things I said about you a couple of months ago. Stay off the booze, my friend. It shows.

You keep defending the Jews and claim Christians are so much worse, but tell me, how many have the Jews slaughtered over time? Regardless of why or on whose account, even if God directed them, your hands aren't clean, either.

Keep trying.

27

JW's a RELIGION based on PERFORMANCE! How dangerous is that???

by freewilly01 in

jw
friends

i have come to realize that this religion is based almost solely on performance and that is the most dangerous.. i always felt that as a person or jw (while an active witness)that i was always just as good as my last assignment, comment at the watchtower meeting, feild service report.. this left me with a huge identity crisis in the borgorg......... i really didn't know who the hell i was?.

did any of you feel similair?

.

jonathan dough

our salvation is based on faith and not works

That's a lie if you are defending the JWs. Read this and it will really open your mind to the nonsense they preach.

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-4.html#VA

In the judgment scene at Revelation 20:11-15, during Christ's Millennial Reign "the scroll of life" is shown as opened to receive additional names; scrolls of instruction are also opened. Those who come back in the 'resurrection of the unrighteous' will thus have the opportunity of having their names written on "the scroll of life," provided they obediently perform deeds that are in harmony with the scrolls of instruction (Ac 24;15) Of course, faithful servants of God who come back in the resurrection of the righteous will already have their names in the "scroll of life." By their loyal obedience to the divine instructions, they will keep their names in it.

How does a person get his name permanently retained in the "book of life"? For those who are in line to receive heavenly life, it is by conquering this world through faith, proving themselves faithful even to death." Re 2:10; 3:5) For those who are in line to receive life on earth, it is by proving loyal to Jehovah through a final, decisive test at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign. (Re 20:7, 8) Those who maintain integrity through that final test will have their names retained permanently by God in the "book of life." (Insight, 251)

12

ARRGH - Post Memorial Calls

by Simon Morley in

jw
friends

seems that our 1st non attendance at the memorial has put us on the "1 sheep out of 100 radar".

we have been inundated with calls (we usually do a good job of screening) and the drop by in service wed, thurs and yesterday of some of the die/blowhards.

i fully expect another in about an hour.

jonathan dough

Tell them to prove there is such a thing as a literal 144,000. It's impossible: http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html#II Accordingly, the entire ritual is a hoax. And ask them why they continue to partake when they were to stop when Jesus returned, which they claim he did in 1914, and is present (the parousia). They should have stopped by now. And have them explain the 144,000 dog-and-pony show countdown, that the 144,000 number was surpassed centuries ago.

Tell them it's a false religion.

23

When are anointed who die before Armageddon resurrected as per the Watchtower?

by ThomasCovenant in

am i correct in thinking that 'the remnant' and previous anointed who die are instantly resurrected as spirit creatures?.

any quotes from wt literature are appreciated.. thanks.

jonathan dough

From: http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-5.html#VI

VI. The first resurrection did not begin in 1918 with the resurrection of the 144,000 to heaven, and salvation is not granted based on deeds performed in accordance with new rules and regulations during the 1,000 year reign. [Home]

The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the first resurrection, for the 144,000 only, began in 1918 and will conclude shortly (Revelation Climax, 103, 277), a theory at drastic odds with Revelation 20:4-6.

4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.( Rev. 20:4-6 NWT)

Admittedly confusing, these verses have been debated by religious scholars for centuries with respect to which “coming to life” event is the first resurrection. It is obviously not 1918 before the Great Tribulation, before the entire book of Revelation for that matter. Rather, the first resurrection will be associated with a) the first "coming to life” event, b) the second “coming to life” event, c) both events, d) during the thousand year reign, or e) after the thousand year reign. It leaves no room for a 1918 first resurrection.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses reject these ‘coming to life’ events as being the first resurrection, especially the second event where the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years are over.

As clearly stated, it is not “the rest of the dead” who share in the first resurrection. That resurrection is for those who rule with Christ for the thousand years. (Reasoning, 338.) Who, then, are “the rest of the dead?” They are all those of mankind who died as a result of Adamic sin and those who, though survivors of the great tribulation or those who may be born during the Millennium, need to be relieved of the death-dealing effects of such sin. - Compare Ephesians 2:1. In what sense do they not “come to life” until the end of the thousand years? This does not mean their resurrection. This ‘coming to life’ involves much more than merely existing as humans. It means attaining to human perfection, free from all effects of Adamic sin. Notice that the reference to this in verse 5 occurs immediately after the preceding verse says that those who will be in heaven “came to life.” In their case it means life free from all effects of sin; they are even specially favored with immortality. (1 Cor 15:54) For the rest of the dead,” then it must mean the fullness of life in human perfection. (Reasoning, 339) (emphasis added)

For them, the first ‘coming to life’ event only refers to the spiritual condition of those sharing in the 1918 first resurrection of the 144,000, but on closer inspection their interpretation is neither scriptural nor possible. Earlier it was established that the 1914 kingdom date was unsustainable and events associated with that date belonged in the first century, that the Second Coming of Christ did not happen in 1914 but lies ahead, and consequently the first resurrection of 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17, and 1 Corinthians 15:22, 23 which follows closely and is tightly bound to the return or Second Coming, must also lie in the future, not 1918.

Never-the-less, the Jehovah’s Witnesses make an effort to place the beginning of the first resurrection of the 144,000 in 1918, and even go so far as to base their theory of an “earlier” resurrection in Philippians 3:11 on the fact that the Greek word exanastasis can mean getting out of bed in the morning; thus it is an early resurrection, a very weak argument, at best. They claim:

First resurrection. Revelation 20:5, 6 refers to the resurrection of those who will reign with Christ as "the first resurrection." The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as "the earlier resurrection from the dead [literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones)]." Php 3:11, NW, Ro Int) ... Paul is not denying a general resurrection by this language, but emphasizing that of believers." Charles Ellicott's Commentaries (1865, Vol. II, p. 87) remarks on Philippians 3:11: "' The resurrection from the dead;' i.e., as the context suggests, the first resurrection (Rev. xx. 5), when at the Lord's coming the dead in Him shall rise first (1 Thessalon. iv. 16), and the quick be caught up to meet Him in the clouds (1 Thess. iv. 17); compare Luke xx. 35. The first resurrection will include only true believers, and will apparently precedes the second, that of non-believers and disbelievers, in point of time ... Any reference here to a merely ethical resurrection (Cocceius) is wholly out of the question." One of the basic meanings of the word exanastasis is getting up from bed in the morning; thus it can well represent a resurrection occurring early, otherwise called "the first resurrection.' Rotherham's translation of Philippians 3:11 reads: "If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection which is from the dead." (Insight, 787)

But this is not true. A literal translation makes no reference to an earlier resurrection but simply reads “… if somehow I may attain to the resurrection from the dead” (Phil. 3:11) (Same NAB and KJV.) The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ reliance on an 1865 commentary by Charles Ellicott does not advance their cause. Even though he sees two resurrections, he ties the first to the Second Coming and places no date on either event, let alone 1918.

If Ellicott is not a Jehovah’s Witness it is doubtful that he believes the Second Coming happened in 1914 and the first resurrection began in 1918. And if that is the case he would place the first resurrection of believers during the thousand year reign and the second of non-believers after the thousand year reign which is at direct odds with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Furthermore, since Ellicott’s second resurrection only includes non-believers and disbelievers, that will include by necessity resurrected members of the Great Crowd who do not survive the Great Tribulation, and Abraham, Moses and Isaiah etc. N. Turner on the other hand comments “Elsewhere the NT does not envisage two resurrections, which are an invention of this (another) author (Peake‘s Commentaries, 1057).

And just because Rotherham inserted the word ‘earlier’ into Philippians 3:11 in his amplified Bible, that is not enough to overcome the overwhelming weight of scriptural authority to the contrary. Philippians 3:11 does not say there is an earlier resurrection. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are merely using one other person’s error as precedent. One is reminded of Jesus’ warning at Matthew 15:14: “If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into the pit.”

The Jehovah’s Witnesses also attempt to shoehorn the general resurrection into the thousand year reign, which would enable the generally resurrected to be judged then during the so-called second judgment day period, teaching that the one sitting on the white throne judges during the thousand year reign and not after. But this is also a false interpretation.

Also, there are many "unrighteous" persons buried in Sheol (Hades), mankind's common grave, or in the "sea," watery graves. The judgment of these along with "the righteous" resurrected on earth is described in Revelation 20:12, 13; "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.
Time of the earthly resurrection. We note that this judgment is placed in the Bible in the account of events occurring during Christ's Thousand Year Reign with his associate kings and priests. These, the apostle Paul said, "will judge the world." (1Co 6:2) "The great and the small," persons from all walks of life, will be there to be judged impartially. (Insight, 788)

However, Revelation 20:11 only refers to one throne, the white one, not multiple thrones, that is, the thrones of 20:5, 6 which the 144,000 allegedly occupy. This act of judgment from the white throne follows the thousand year reign; it is not during that reign, but after Satan’s release from prison, after the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city are surrounded, after the evil ones are consumed by fire, and after the Devil is thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur.

7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 And I saw (“Next I saw” NAB; “Then I saw” RSV, TNIV, NIV, NASB, AB, WENT) a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:7-15 NWT) (emphasis added)

The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ theory creates a problem for themselves because moving the white throne judgment back into the thousand year reign means their ‘perfected’ man cannot be judged as they claim at the final test after the thousand year reign, a test by the way which is not mentioned at all in Revelation 20:9, but only assumed.

9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev. 20:9)

All it says is that the camp and city of the holy ones become surrounded by Satan’s quislings Gog and Magog and their ilk who are then surreptitiously destroyed with no mention that the holy ones are subjected to yet another test. Remember, according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses this test is administered to Abraham, Moses and Isaiah, etc. who have been enlightened and lifted up to human perfection by the Great Crowd, and learn of Jesus, which is unlikely to say the least. (Moses? Of Matthew 17:3?). Although the Jehovah's Witnesses have been known to deny it, this really is "works-based" salvation.

In the judgment scene at Revelation 20:11-15, during Christ's Millennial Reign "the scroll of life" is shown as opened to receive additional names; scrolls of instruction are also opened. Those who come back in the 'resurrection of the unrighteous' will thus have the opportunity of having their names written on "the scroll of life," provided they obediently perform deeds that are in harmony with the scrolls of instruction (Ac 24:15) Of course, faithful servants of God who come back in the resurrection of the righteous will already have their names in the "scroll of life." By their loyal obedience to the divine instructions, they will keep their names in it.
How does a person get his name permanently retained in the "book of life"? For those who are in line to receive heavenly life, it is by conquering this world through faith, proving themselves faithful even to death." Re 2:10; 3:5 For those who are in line to receive life on earth, it is by proving loyal to Jehovah through a final, decisive test at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign. (Re 20:7, 8) Those who maintain integrity through that final test will have their names retained permanently by God in the "book of life." (Insight, 251)

The Jehovah's Witnesses are cautioned to read Ephesians 2:8,9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works so no one may boast." Furthermore, a final test is not necessary by the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ own admission since they also state that the issue pertaining to man’s obedience has been already settled, that the issue of God’s sovereignty “has been judicially settled by the court of heaven,”(Insight, 170). But if that is the case there would be no reason to keep putting ‘perfected’ man on judgment.

In the end, the so-called 1918 first resurrection of the 144,000 must be moved forward near the inception or into the thousand year reign because it can’t stay where it is and has no other place to go since the first resurrection can’t take place after the thousand year reign because they flatly reject that option (Reasoning, 338). Consequently, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are stuck in a conundrum or two, another vexing set of problems:

(1) The resurrected 144,000 are merged with the resurrected members of the Great Crowd and the unrighteous during the thousand year reign, all of whom are therefore part of the first resurrection. But since those of the first resurrection, which would actually be the general resurrection, do not die again in the Second Death (Rev. 20:6), educating them to perfection and putting them on judgment would be pointless.

(2) If returning the 144,000’s first resurrection to the thousand year reign shifts, or bumps, the generally resurrected to after the thousand year reign, there is no one to educate to perfection and put on judgment during the millennial period.

52

Good books against evolution?

by bohm in

jw
friends

after reading 'the greatest show on earth' by dawkins, i have been intrigued by how biblical literalists explain the many findings that seem to support evolution and contradict various parts of the bible.

in doing to i have browsed around on aig but i have generally felt let down by the quality of evidence and interpretations they present.

so i would like to ask all non-evolutionists: if i wanted to learn more about the physical case against evolution, what books should i read?

jonathan dough

Darwin on Trial by Phillip Johnson. He destroys the evolutionists, buries them

The only problem is, he's a lawyer, not a biologist.

That's not a problem but an asset, and unless you have read it cover-to-cover you should keep your opinion to yourself.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/

52

Good books against evolution?

by bohm in

jw
friends

after reading 'the greatest show on earth' by dawkins, i have been intrigued by how biblical literalists explain the many findings that seem to support evolution and contradict various parts of the bible.

in doing to i have browsed around on aig but i have generally felt let down by the quality of evidence and interpretations they present.

so i would like to ask all non-evolutionists: if i wanted to learn more about the physical case against evolution, what books should i read?

jonathan dough

Darwin on Trial by Phillip Johnson. He destroys the evolutionists, buries them. It's a must read.

http://www.amazon.com/Darwin-Trial-Phillip-E-Johnson/dp/0830813241/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270135837&sr=1-1

20

What is a true Christian?

by wannabe in

what is a true christian?.

of course it had to be the twelve apostles, didn't it?

" {john 13:34,35 nwt}.

jonathan dough

All I've seen flow ever since 1914 is Blood! A shame isn't it, they wern't loving their enemies then? Maybe Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been given a break, instead of two Atom Bombs. Lovely loving thing to do wasn't it? By the way to express proper love for God, one must love his neighbor as himself, and OBEY all of God's Commandments.

Look, here, knucklehead. If it weren't for the allies stopping Hitler and the Japanese you wouldn't even be here to preach your sanctemonious drivle. You would be a pile of ashes at the bottom of an oven grate. Hundreds of thousands sacrificed their lives for the likes of you so you could preach your hatefilled nonsense, your hypocritical selfish unbiblical distortion of what the Bible really teaches. The JWs are wrong about everything. I dare you to prove me wrong: http://www.144000.110mb.com/ Name one JW in the past 150 years who sacrificed his or her life for someone else they didn't even know. Just one.